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Pittsburgh Bloodbowl
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Seancho
Commissioner
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 265
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: 5th Edition |
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Nick
The Dick
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 158
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orkdom
Squig fer brains
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Location: orkdom, of course!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: |
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I'd say it's hard to nerf a codex that only had one troops choice to begin with. They really should've spent a little more time on that thing, it's kind of silly.
In all seriousness though, necron warriors= teh wins in terms of scoring units with staying power. I don't ever want to have to move a 20 strong warrior squad off an objective! Especially not without my olf feral warboss with burna...I miss him so. 
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The universe is orkdom!
WHO LOVES ORKS?!!??
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33080
Just about everyone, apparently. |
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Mark
Cheating Eldar Prat
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 217
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know.
I think the 'crons are sort of in the middle of the "grab you ankles and take it like a man" crowd.
Clearly all HtH armies came out way ahead (orks, tyranids) and all shooty armies are nigh unplayable now (guard).
No real point in arguing over who in the middle got screwed more than someone else.
Basically, 5th edition is great if you have green skin or wear power armor, otherwise it's at best a mixed bag, probably a bit for the worse. |
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kalador101
Starting Line
Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 290
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to reserve judgement on shooty armies being worthless. the fact you cannot consolidate into a new combat could make a significant difference. Yes, you can charge 2 squads, but that still leaves the possability that either:
A) the new "Countercharge" rules leaves you with too much to handle.
B) you end up breaking both squads and are still stranded.
C) only 1 squad is in charge range.
Also remember that guard are cheap and rumored to be getting cheaper in the next codex. As such, that guard player might be happy to trade 2 squads for the opportunity to rapidfire his flashlights & assault weapons.
I'll definitely be considering a "screen" of guardsmen to put in front of my sisters. Hold them behind my sisters until the turn you are going to charge, move them forward and block you from charging my sisters and then rapidfire you with bolters. It might not work, but I'm willing to give it a try. after all, you are only throwing away a few guardsmen...
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Kerwin
Shadyside Slayers 3-4 in '08 |
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Nick
The Dick
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
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kalador101
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Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 290
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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The heck with the Officers, that's my Witchhunters talking. There's a limited supply of sisters, bolters and power armor. The same can't be said of guardsmen, flack jackets, and flashlights. 
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Kerwin
Shadyside Slayers 3-4 in '08 |
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orkdom
Squig fer brains
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Location: orkdom, of course!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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What about the batteries? 
Having played quite a bit of fifth now I don't really know what all the fuss about shooty armies being boss is. If you're really strictly talking about the death of stand-and-shoot gunlines, then all I can say is tough shit-- anything to invalidate that can only be positive, in my opinion.
Guard will certainly have it rough until the new codex comes out. Not like they were spectacular in 4th though....and armies like tau, with firepower AND mobility, are no worse for the wear.
Actually, I don't the guard codex was ever really that great. Guardsmen have always been too close to useless to justify the points cost of even bare minimum platoons (one of the most expensive troops choices), so in games less than 1500 they were sorely lacking in free points after mandatory units. Sure there was all that cool stuff you could do with your guardsmen using doctrines, but they were still guardsmen, with the same hitting power no matter where you put them or how you put them there. You really never cuold rely on basic guardsmen to accomplish much- the power's all in the support and more cost effective infantry like conscripts.
Template weapons are going to be much, much more deadly in this edition, being more accurate and also because partials no longer exist-- if any part of the model is under, its a hit.
And of course there's the stuff kerwin mentioned. Yes static gunlines might not be so great in 5th, so boo hoo, you'll have to be an active player in the game now. Witchhunters get much better, tau are still fine, eldar are doing just fine, marines are a little silly where scoring units are concerned, but with the right power application you can deal with that since more scoring units means they're all easier to kill. Necrons need an update too, but they've got really tough units in general, and they're getting that much tougher in fifth (two pk warbosses is virtually mandatory against them if you ask me), so they should handle fine.
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The universe is orkdom!
WHO LOVES ORKS?!!??
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33080
Just about everyone, apparently. |
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Mark
Cheating Eldar Prat
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 217
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Eldar are doing fine? You're kidding right?
Ok, first off, only two template weapons in then entire army, both arguable overcosted. The fire prism is a bit better but that's only because the falcon left its genitals with 4th edition. Missile launchers might be ok, but are still pretty damn expensive.
Next up, close combat is king in 5th. Quick, name an Eldar unit designed for close combat that didn't rely on wiping the enemy out without retaliation. Oh, that's right, there isn't one. Banshees should be viewed by your opponents as victory points with boobs. Harlequins are a bit better off, but are still horribly expensive. Scorpions stand a chance and that's about it for actual hand to hand. I guess the designers think chasing warp spiders around all game is fun for the opponent.
Oh, and let's not forget the best part, troops. Eldar don't really have any, or at least they won't by the end of the game. Wait, I forgot, if you want to drop 400 point per troop choice, you can get a full squad of wraithguard.
So other than screwing over both the shooting and close combat aspects of the army, remind me again how we're doing fine?
I guess GW has really captured the spirit of the whole dying race thing since from what I can tell we're going to be seeing an awful lot of that. |
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orkdom
Squig fer brains
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Location: orkdom, of course!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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-Pathfinders. Average 2+ cover save with AP1 sniper rifles, and troops (with a 2+ cover save). Did I mention the 2+ cover save? Sit these on the objective....
-Jetbikes. Turbo boosting troops with a 3+ cover save. For 152 you get 6 with 2 shuricannons. I get a trukkboyz mob for the same price. Unless you're dice are loaded for Ld checks, you shouldn't have much trouble stopping that trukk before it gets to you. Oh- turboboosting troops with a 3+ cover save.
-Eldrad....Fortune and Doom and Guide. Oh my! Fortune means all sorts of fun (you can use it on vehicles!), but there's not too much new to this guy, he's still just as much of an asshole as he's always been.
-Farseer. Not a fan of "special characters FTW"? for 20pts less than Eldrad, put a regular farseer on a bike with all the above mentioned powers and all the same equipment, just a little less hitting power in combat and no duplicate powers each turn. And he'll be on a bike. Mobility FTW!
I'm not going to go through this unit by unit. Obviously, I don't even play weedy panzees. But, really now, why don't you give it a little bit of a small portion of an atom of a chance before you complain about it- please? I have yet to win against eldar in fifth, but I have very soundly beaten tau. In fourth I beat Eldar on quite a few occasions but victories against tau were few and far between. Think about the difference between these two armies: one has combat-capable units, one does not.
So your harlequins can't charge a 20 strong ork mob and assume victory? Use them defensively. Focus you power, play on the move. You worried about me 'running' at you? Gues what, it's an unreliable d6 that I can only charge with once a game. Unless you're an idiot, and just sit there waiting for me to close the gap, it'll be hard for me to get it off really well. You're eldar, and you're quite mobile. Swooping Hawks, Warpspiders, Jetbikes... Star Engines still allow Eldar vehicles to move 30" over terrain when it comes time to evacuate a given area of the board or zoom in to contest objectives. Bet you've never actually tried using those before. You're now quite easily the fastest army in the game.
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The universe is orkdom!
WHO LOVES ORKS?!!??
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33080
Just about everyone, apparently. |
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Mark
Cheating Eldar Prat
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 217
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I have used them. Quit effectively actually.
I don't mean to sound like I am complaining. I welcome the challenge. I just feel like GW didn't have to make it as much of a challenge.
In response to your first two point, pathfinders are terrific and will hold objectives like a pro, if they are in your deployment zone. Otherwise, they will either hold objectives or shoot their incredible weapons, not both. jetbikes are sorta the same boat here. Either they do something or they zip around the table.
Don't get me wrong, I see more than a couple of ways to win consistently, the problem is I'm not going to make a lot of friends playing a points denial game where I just tie up a third of my army in units you can't catch that aren't going to do anything.
I hope I'm wrong, but I see the daemons being a lot more satisfying with the new rules. They can actually do what the units were intended to do rather than make every single choice a "live another turn vs. do something effective" decision. |
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krootman
Starting Line
Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Posts: 431
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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I don't mean to sound like I am complaining. I welcome the challenge. I just feel like GW didn't have to make it as much of a challenge. |
Thats what it sounds like, I understand you play to win...I do as well but it sounds like you only take the armies that are the easiest to win with... (Though you don't play nidzilla so I give you props there)
I have no pitty on the eldar, they are not getting nerfed they are just actually making you play them....Im sorry you can no longer hide for the first 5 turns of the game and then come out grab every objective and kill 1 of my units and win the game. Thats not how 40k was ment to be played. I really think the only army that got hosed by 5th is the guard, hence they will have a new dex out by the end of the year...problem solved.
Mark you are the only one that is complaining about eldar, every eldar player I know from back home, who frequent Gts across the country (it doesnt get anymore competitive then that) have not said 1 bad thing about eldar in 5th, nether has Dom so I dont understand what you are complaining about. Again im still not sorry you can no longer move and fire your skimmer land raider...
Just my 2 cents I still have love for you mark  |
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Mark
Cheating Eldar Prat
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 217
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| krootman wrote: |
I understand you play to win...I do as well but it sounds like you only take the armies that are the easiest to win with... (Though you don't play nidzilla so I give you props there) |
No, I play to have fun. In fact, my biggest complaint is the constant (and in my eyes completely needless) retooling of my armies based not on fluff, but GW's need to have people constantly buying models.
Frankly, GW needs to put out some fluff explaining exactly what is so great about things that the Eldar would even care. For a dying race with the predictive abilities to pick their fights, they should never get involved in most of the fights we play. Accoding to fluff, farseers will allow entire alien worlds to die to save a single eldar life but killing them in droves to serve as a meat shield to keep a wraithlord (already dead) alive long enough to engage the enemy seems perfectly acceptable now. I'm sorry if you don't see that as stupid. The eldar are not about throwing three or four dozen guardians out there to catch bullets so the rest of the army survives to do their job. That's the way Guard plays. I'm saddened that the "designers" at GW don't seem to understand that.
| krootman wrote: |
| Im sorry you can no longer hide for the first 5 turns of the game and then come out grab every objective and kill 1 of my units and win the game. Thats not how 40k was ment to be played. |
I agree completely. First off, I have never played that way. In fact the worst game I ever played was against Dom's Cheddar Angles where we concluded that the best thing I could have done was basically avoid him all game, play the point denial game, and never engage. Now, that's fun isn't it.
My problem is that, the way I see it, this is EXACTLY what GW pushing as the ideal Eldar strategy. Things are either extremely fragile (but potentially deadly) or survivable. While I would never actually do it, why wouldn't you play safe for the early turns turboboosting around in your nigh unkillable vehicles only to pop out turn five to clear a couple objectives and win. GW is promoting the stupid play not eliminating it.
| krootman wrote: |
| I really think the only army that got hosed by 5th is the guard, hence they will have a new dex out by the end of the year...problem solved. |
I doubt it. Guard suck. Guard have sucked for a long time and I predict they will suck for a long time to come. Their fluff is to die (hopefully) slowly enough to allow the real soldiers time to get there and save the day.
| krootman wrote: |
| Just my 2 cents I still have love for you mark |
Ewwwwww.... |
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Seancho
Commissioner
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 265
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Well apart from the gay love form the last two posts.
guard are competitive. unfortunately for them to be so, they need tons of expensive regiments, special units that arnt cheap. and armor. which any guard player worth a damn already buys. Yeah they are ment to die in droves of hundreds, but their also suppose to lay down a wall of fire that would wipe out most anything you put in front of it. it just doesnt happen though does it? between armor saves, invuns, and such, they never get that kill zone they are suppose to have. there should be a 14 inch gap between them and most enemies that just equals Death. but they havent made it possible yet.
Maybe if lasguns were Assault 3 instead of Rapid fire you might see more guard teams surviving the 2nd turn of a game. hell if they made it so guard had units of marine squads as an elite choice or hell I dont know. they need to reduce their cost and increase their life span. and make numbers Matter. a 30 man unit of conscripts should never lose out to a 5 man marine unit. power armor or not, thats 30 people stabbing, cutting and such in close combat. fluff is fluff, but sometimes you gotta just use logic.
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Nick
The Dick
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